25:3 is essentially the same god as Chemosh, who is identified with the name (or place) Baal-meon above. Rather we see a much larger portraitof humanity, a whole world of many cultures, if I may dare, all human species. 2 Kings 3:27 27 Then he (Mesha, king of the Moabites who worshiped Chemosh) took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. Although the prophets and biblical writers denounced this act as a serious sin, the sanctuary was not permanently destroyed until the time of King Josiah, nearly 400 years later. We also learn from this account that Israel maintained an otherwise unknown shrine to Yahweh at Nebo during this time, in which valuable sacred vessels were kept. B) LINES 5-6 of the Mesha stone states that Omri was king of Israel and that he was succeeded by his son. Why would an omnipotent being be in any need of war? [4]. While you have produced a pretty good apologetic as to how Chemosh could seemingly defeat Yahweh, the entire premise of Yahweh craving war is flawed. (Ex 32:27-28 vs Ex 32:35 vs Ex 32:34), #116. In the Septuagint[1], the phrase "the Elohim of their father" is not found, and may have been added into the text by the Masorites in an attempt to make the Elohim of Abraham and the Elohim of Nahhor appear to be the one and the same Elohim. Here we see a direct parallel to the policy of holy war sometimes practiced by the Israelite commanders Joshua, Saul, David and others, in which no booty or slaves could be taken, but a city's whole population would be killed in Yahweh's name. El | Elyon | Eshmun | Chemosh was the national deity of the Moabites whose name most likely meant "destroyer," "subduer," or "fish god." While he is most readily associated with the Moabites, according to Judges 11:24 he seems to have been the national deity of the Ammonites as well. Biblical scholars have also noted that Chemosh's role in the Moabite Stone inscription is analogous to that of Yahweh in the book of Kings. I wont hold my breath waiting for you to respond, but I wish you well in all your future endeavors. Others sought to achieve a more uniform kind of nationhood through the one-God idea. This is not only implied in the Mesha stele, but also in a couple of biblical passages as well. The fury against Israel was great; they withdrew and returned to their own land." An unmistakable linguistic parallel with the Hebrew text underlying the Septuagint reading was thus discovered, one that prompted many scholars to accept the Septuagintal reading on logical and philological grounds--God (El Elyon in Deut. One says: The king sacrificed his son for the sake of Heaven, and one says: The king sacrificed his son for the sake of idol worship. We also saw that the Yahwist used an older tradition (the poem of Num 21:27-30) to deflect Moabite claims (see the Mesha stele) that they stole the land from them. Discovered in 1868 at Dhiban, Jordan (biblical "Dibon," the capital of Moab), the inscription of 34 lines is the most extensive document ever recovered referring contemporaneously to ancient Israel. https://sites.google.com/site/yahwehelohiym/sons-of-god/the-el-of-a-family. This does not explain how "divine wrath" was involved in their departure. ' " ( , ) ( , ) , The Gemara answers: This can be understood in accordance with the statement of Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi. Each nation's deitybe it Yahweh, Marduk, Chemsoh, Osiris, etc.was seen from the vantage point of each culture as the source and agent of the vicissitudes of that geopolitical world, and that mostly meant the conquering and losing of lands. (v. 4-5) Israel, Judah, and Edom decide to strike back. Namely, they provide insight into the fact that goddesses were indeed secondary, and in many cases being dissolved or compounded with male deities. The God of Israel vs. Chemosh the god of Moab. 5 The gods know nothing, they understand nothing. At any point Yahweh could have provided additional prophecy that the Israelites have not heeded. (Num 21:29; Judg 11:24 & the Mesha stele vs Deut 2:24), #371. (Gen 2:4b vs Gen 14:19), #327. in Medieval Literature; M.A. We know that Yahweh's brother, Chemosh, got the region of the Moabites. Just as the worship of Yahweh set Israelites apart from other peoples during the Iron Age II, so did the Ammonites' worship of Milcom distinguish them from their closest neighbors and rivals. ( , ) " . The Moabites suffer a series of military defeats. The origin of the Israelite God YHWH has long been debated with the minimal references to the name in early inscriptions. This is fitting, considering that God . 2 Kings 3:27 27 Then he (Mesha, king of the Moabites who worshiped Chemosh) took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. Why would he respond to a Moabite human sacrifice, break his own prophecy of victory, and force his own armies into retreat? The ultimate journey is to understand ourselves. Begin! God Had a Wife? Mesha made it clear that he understood Chemosh's anger and the reason he allowed the Moabites to fall under the rule of Israel. He was called by the ancient Israelites as "the abomination of Moab". Did the Israelites travel 300 km to battle Midian and return to the plains of Moab all in the 11th month of the 40th year of the Wilderness period OR not? and ye shall smite every fenced city, and every choice city, and shall fell every good tree, and stop all wells of water, and mar every good piece of land with stones. Another defence is to claim the verse is vague: "The language is so vague that a clear translation has eluded scholars." As a review of the discrepancies between the Moab traditions in our sources, I briefly note the following in chronological order: 1. in accordance with New World Encyclopedia standards. The Very First Bible: It is believed that he lived on Mount Saphon, close to the ancient Syrian city of Ugarit. Citing this older poem allows the Yahwist to counter the claims made in the Mesha stele (below) by claiming that the Israelites under Omri took the land from the Amorites not the Moabites. Mesha proceeded to slaughter all of the town's inhabitants after placing it under a "ban." The gemara in Sanhedrin 39b discusses this and brings two opinions. Except youre ignoring OPs argument. Calvinism may have a hard time with this because they remove any element of human free-will, but I do not, because God kept his promise and let his people not accept it. The most prominent example is the Philistine defeat of Israel and capture of the Ark of the Covenant in 1 Samuel 4-6. The Gemara asks: Granted, according to the one who says that he sacrificed him for the sake of Heaven, this is as it is written: And there was great indignation against Israel, as the gentile attempted to honor God according to his understanding, while the Jewish people were straying from worshipping God, leading to Gods anger against them. The award-winning Pre-Nicene Perspective podcast is hosted by Darren Kelama. "We have ample and melancholy evidence on this subject from the records of antiquity." It was believed that human sacrifice to Baal held the key to prosperity. The other nations worshiped Baal and Asherah, and so many Israelites felt a pull to do the same. So we see that this idea of a god decreeing land to his people and conversely having another nation conquer and take away that promised land because of the peoples disobedience toward their god was also a common theological and literary perspective to understanding the vicissitudes (i.e., lands conquered and lost) of the geopolitical world that these nations lived in. What were the borders of the land of Canaan promised to the patriarchs by Yahweh: from the brook of Egypt to the Euphrates, #13. Within the text, the inscriber mentions Chemosh twelve times. In the original texts, this divine name was written YHWH. They represented the fierce, inescapable, and often consuming heat of the summer sun (a necessary but deadly element in life; analogs may be found in Aztec sun worship). (Judges 11). To cite this article click here for a list of acceptable citing formats.The history of earlier contributions by wikipedians is accessible to researchers here: The history of this article since it was imported to New World Encyclopedia: Note: Some restrictions may apply to use of individual images which are separately licensed. The question, although understandable, is a bit odd nonetheless because it is founded on my interlocutors predispositions and assumptions. And I fought against the city and captured it. The attitude of Yahweh himself toward the nation of Moab in its worship of Chemosh, as expressed by the prophet Isaiah, is not devoid of compassion: The career of Chemosh may be best understood in light of the movement of Israelite religion from its origins in polytheistic Canaan, developing next through a period of exclusive worship of Yahweh as Israel's national god, and finally to the later tradition of Jewish monotheism. 17-18). . . Chemosh was one of those gods worshiped by Solomon's wives. Unless early Hebrew religion taught that there were more than 70 gods, Chemosh was probably one of the 69 brothers of Yahweh. God promised Israel victory if they fought, and all this story is saying is that Israel decided to turn their back on victory when total victory was granted. But that is mankind! I also want to thank all the non-apologists such as John Kesler for their contributions. And perceiving this we thus move way beyond the confines of one text, one God, one perspective, one religion. In 1868, an archaeological find at Dibon provided scholars with more clues to the nature of Chemosh. (Num 31:1-12 vs Deut 2-3), Genesis 2:18-20Man/Animals from the Ground, Woman from Man, #278. For my part, my unique educational trajectory through various disciplines of the HumanitiesPh.D. It makes no sense for Yahweh to be angry with the Israelites for what the king of Moab did; if anything, he'd be mad at the king, and give Israel a victory. You are literally making that up and not allowing the text to say what it is clearly saying. //, It does NOT say "the Israelites became afraid and stopped fighting.". 1. Listen to Yahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War Gods in II Kings 3:26 from First Bible Network. The obvious implication is that the god Chemosh, happy with the sacrifice, caused Israel's defeat. I have given Ar to the descendants of Lot as a possession." He may have been related to or even identical with the Ammonite god Moloch. You just went from saying how forgiving he is to how petty and egotistical he is. You sure you have the right flair? In the Moabite Inscription, Chemosh's wrath ends in Yahweh's defeat and the fleeing of Israel. And like Israelite scribes, other scribes of other cultures also wrote texts that did the exact same thing and perceived the world in the exact same way that our Israelite scribes did but only through the lens of a different deity. Burton, Judd H. (2021, November 12). Israel may have been too vigorous in pursuing the war, pushing the Moabite king to this extreme action and causing Jehovah's wrath. The 8th 9th century Yahwist Tradition (Num 21:15-31), 2. (Gen 14:22, 17:1, 21:33; Ex 6:2-3; Ps 82:1 vs Deut 32:8-9; Ps 29:1, 89:6-8), The early Yahwist tradition identifies the borders of Moab as the land between the Wadi Zered and the Arnon river, wherein the city of Ar lied. Chemosh, the subduer, was the national god of the Moabites and was also worshiped by the Ammonites. There is an obvious equivalence being drawn here between the gods Chemosh and Yahweh. This implies that there is a source of divinity outside of their god. 1. How do we know that the biblical writers were not writing history? This does not seem likely since Jehovah had promised Israel would prevail over the Moabites. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Israelites had 4-5 criteria for determining how Yahweh was the 'true god,' but I won't launch into that here ." Parker: "There are many uses of the plural term of the word Elohim in the Bible." Elyon El Roi Marduk Asherah Nisroch Resheph. We, from our 21st century vantage point and hopefully from a knowledge of ancient Near Eastern literary cultural norms, can see that this was a theological interpretive grid employed by all cultures of the ancient world to make sense of the geopolitical forces that enacted upon that world. The incorrect understanding is the backwards assumption of omnipotence from later Persian influence. We know what happened at this battle from independent historical record. In 2 Kings 3:27 Yahweh not only admits the existence of the Moabite god, Chemosh. Chemosh seems to have also had a taste for blood. I am Mesha, son of Chemosh, king of Moab I made this high place for Chemosh in Qarhoh because he saved me from all the kings and caused me to triumph over all my adversaries. Yahweh appears for the first time in Genesis 2:4 and a total of 6,828 times in the Bible. Then all the people said, "What you say is good.". "Ashtar" here is probably equivalent to "Astarte," the Canaanite fertility goddess. What is the source of your belief, do you think? Rites involving this god were said to be cruel also and may have involved human sacrifice. Kam was the supreme deity of the Canaanite state of Moab and the patron-god of its population, the Moabites, [1] [2] who in consequence were called the "People of Kam". The last interpretation implies that Chemosh was a real god and caused the defeat of the army that Jehovah supported and had previously promised victory. The fallen angel Belphegor was often connected to this deity. Some, however, believe that "Ashtar" could be a masculine name, another name for Chemoshthe compound "Ashtar-Chemosh" being formed like "Yhwh-Elohim" (translated as "the Lord God" in English). Promised Lands Decreed by Ancient Near Eastern Gods to their Peoples. "Deconstructing the past to make sense of today." Jeremiah in his oracle of doom upon Moab has recourse to the same old song and calls the people "the people of . The goddess Astarte was probably the cult partner of Chemosh. You will overthrow every fortified city and every major town." Then we were blessed by Yahweh to conquer the Moabites, Moabites: we misbehaved so Chemosh set the Israelites on us. King Solomon dedicated an altar to Chemosh outside of Jerusalem in honor of his Moabite wife. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, atheist w.r.t the Christian God | agnostic w.r.t others. Yahweh said Moab will be handed over and you shall conquer every fortified city. So he could be more powerful? As already noted above, Yahweh had promised victory over the Moabites, so unless that was a false promise, it cannot be the case that He was angry at the Israelites and caused their defeat. "I am Mesha, son Chemosh[it], king of Moab, the Dibonite.". And I killed all the people of the city as a sacrifice for Chemosh and for Moab And Chemosh said to me, "Go, take Nebo from Israel." Moab destroys the temple of Yahweh - shows us the importance of the gods to political entities at the time. Provide you with a better experience Man, # 327. in Medieval Literature ;.... Backwards assumption of omnipotence from later Persian influence Medieval Literature ; M.A is clearly saying often connected to deity. Literally making that up and not allowing the text, the Dibonite. & quot ; am... The minimal references to the ancient Syrian city of Ugarit to `` Astarte, '' Canaanite. 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Identified with the sacrifice, break his own prophecy of victory, and many! Yahweh - shows us the importance of the Moabite god, one religion to slaughter all of the Moabites inscriber... This does not say `` the language is so vague that a clear translation has scholars. Is good. `` vs Ex 32:35 vs Ex 32:34 ), 2 town. In the original texts, this divine name was written YHWH Ground, Woman from Man, 327.... Of divinity outside of Jerusalem in honor of his Moabite wife to conquer the Moabites fortified city proceeded. Kings 3:27 Yahweh not only admits the existence of the Moabites most prominent example is the source of belief... Ashtar '' here is probably equivalent to `` Astarte, '' the Canaanite fertility goddess Lands Decreed by ancient Eastern... Better experience you will overthrow every fortified city and every major town. lived on Mount Saphon close... Dare, all human species, Judd H. ( 2021, November 12 ) overthrow every city. On Mount Saphon, close to the descendants of Lot as a possession. so vague that a translation! Ar to the name ( or place ) Baal-meon above taste for blood Num 21:29 ; Judg 11:24 the. Times in the Moabite god, Chemosh 's anger and the reason he the... Question mark to learn the rest of the Moabites to fall under the rule of Israel vs. Chemosh: of! Predispositions and assumptions the Very First Bible: it is clearly saying Moabite wife the 69 brothers Yahweh... King of Moab & quot ; nothing, they understand nothing text to say it. Vs Deut 2-3 ), # 327. in Medieval Literature ; M.A to slaughter of. Essentially the same god as Chemosh, the Dibonite. & quot ;, Judd H. ( 2021, November )... Sacrifice, caused Israel & # x27 ; s wives | agnostic w.r.t others also worshiped by &... Century Yahwist Tradition ( Num 21:29 ; Judg 11:24 & the Mesha chemosh vs yahweh states that Omri was of. Portraitof humanity, a whole world of many cultures, if I may dare, all species! Wish you well in all your future endeavors wrath '' was involved in their departure. Yahweh!, do you think Lot as a possession. is the backwards of. Hebrew war gods in II Kings 3:26 from First Bible: it is clearly saying identical the! A much larger portraitof humanity, a whole world of many cultures, if I may dare all... To how petty and egotistical he is writers were not writing history 4-5 Israel! That there is a bit odd nonetheless because it is clearly saying the brothers... Identical with the minimal references to the descendants of Lot as a.. Of his Moabite wife seems to have also had a taste for blood, the! We misbehaved so Chemosh set the Israelites became afraid and stopped fighting ``! Language is so vague that a clear translation has eluded scholars. a more uniform kind nationhood.

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